Rob Bell
Time magazine has written an article on Rob Bell, creator of the Nooma DVD’s. It’s a good read. I didn’t know his stance stance on homosexuality. ‘only those with gay friends are positioned to judge homosexuality’.Which is the same conclusion that I basically came to a number of years ago! Read the article here
Hi Scott,
Saddly, not all of his views are orthodox.
You might like to check out this YouTube post
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=8wSAEezBc3s
A critique of Rob Bell’s Velvet Elvis uncovered the following(happy to email the detailed critique if needed)
Heretical Errors:
• Wrong View of the Trinity
• Wrong View of the Exclusivity of Christianity
• Wrong View of the State of Mankind
• Wrong Gospel
Aberrant Theology:
• Wrong View of Jesus’ Purpose
• Wrong View of Heaven and Hell
• Wrong View of Rabbinic Judaism
• Wrong Hermeneutics
• Wrong Influences
Bad Conclusions:
• You Don’t Have to Defend Doctrine
• You Should Not Preach the Gospel with Words
Looking forward to catching up Saturday!
Hi Matt,
just wondering if you have read his books?
Please feel free to download the essay for free at: http://www.sohmer.net/Velvet_Elvis.pdf
I download his preaching.
I think it is important to read his books to help evaluate both what he and his critics say. It would be also interesting to include some Australian critics in the process. Our expression and experience of emerging church is very different to America. Whether Rob Bell is “emergent” or not, he is held up in America as a representative of the movement, and therefore in the firing line by conservative evangelicals.
The YouTube critique (offered above) was an Australian critic living in Denmark. The essay critique was put together by an English guy who is half British. Yes conservative evangelicals do attack the “emergent” movement (for very good, justifiable reasons). I too, like many Australian christians agree with the evangelical conservatives in their critique on the “emergent” movement. We must not confuse “emergent” with “emerging”. There are big differences between “emergent” and “emerging” church.
Didn’t want to waste money on buying Rob Bell’s books for obvious reasons. His theology in his preaching is the same as his books anyway. I do like his style just not the content.
I have found that as I have grown in my journey as a Christian, my struggle has increased with black and whiteness concerning theology and doctrine. The more deeply I interact with what I say I believe, the greater the time I spend in grayness. This does not mean that I am losing or watering down my faith, but rather I am engaging in it myself rather than solely letting others (pastors, leaders, writers etc) mitigate it for me. It is not comfortable in the gray zone, but it is honest. I find that writers like Brian McClaren and Rob Bell are sufficiently generous in their orthodoxy to allow for gray. They write in such a way as to give permission to engage freshly with scripture and doctrine. Thankfully this approach to scripture has a long history within the Christian story, or else many of our historic trailblazers would never have got beyond the ‘heretic’ label. People like Luther etc. I am not equating Bell with these rabble rousers of history now recognized as “fathers” of the church, but I do believe that the process of following Jesus is a dynamic one, that is freshly expressed amongst each generation of believers. There is no one way to approach anything. Even relatively “simple” Christian teachings are expressed and understood in a variety of ways, however subtle the differences may be. Rob Bell has his own often insightful way of expressing things in a new way. Or sometimes just reclaiming old ways. I like his work. I am not about to base my entire faith and theology on his writings or preaching, but I am keen to glean whatever draws me closer to following Jesus.
I think the comments have moved away somewhat from the original thought posed by Scott, which was about Rob’s comment concerning homosexuality. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Hi Matt,
Disappointing that you haven’t read the books. You would find that it isn’t a systematic theology book like his critiques would suggest. Some of the critiques you sent links for are very petty. When you read the book you pick this up. For example, the link with the pdf – eg Appendix A pg 49, about how Rob Bell mislead the starting of his church. When reading the book Rob Bell goes out of his way to say that it was not about numbers. It was about his ability to grow himself when pastoring. The chapter wasn’t about the exact way he grew his church and what he wrote he wasn’t lying about. Not that qualifications are anything but the critic who wrote the pdf says of himself that “He is not a Pastor, nor a professional writer”. Mmmmm. Matt you are more qualified to write a critique than he is. You get a different idea of things when you read the primary source. Bell has exhaustive footnotes in his book which I have also looked up as I read. “Velvet Elvis” is a good book, I’ve recommended it as well as given it away to numerous people. His look at how Paul interacted with his culture is excellent.
To be honest its disappointing that Christians tackle others in this manner. There is absolutely no grace. Its like if I don’t agree with your doctrine then I”ll knock you down. Stuff it if there is any truth in it at all. I’ll still knock you down. And some people listen to it and spread it without engaging with the material themselves.
There have been some good critiques of Rob Bell’s work including Carson and Mark Driscoll. They are not necessarily supportive of his views, but do offer a more scholarly analysis.
Agree on the terminology issues for Australia. It seems that the terminology is still blurry in America. Check out Emergent Village concerning the use and confusion for the term.
Hi Matt,
Is it that you are offended when other Christians don’t believe what you do or that they dare to try and make sense of their faith?For many it is a case of suspending belief to accept any version of the Christian faith so why be critical of someone who acknowledges this and at least attempts to make sense of it? Would you rather he just abandon his faith? I don’t think that blind faith would be attractive to God.
Where is the grace and humility, so revered supposedly by Christians, in your initial comment? One damning point after another! Very dismissive. Is this the way you would treat another or would you try to understand how they came to be that way and then share your point of view.Why is it so hard for some Christians to respect the free will of others? Try and show humility because chances are you haven’t got it right either.You are just like the rest of us so that when you damn others you are also damning yourself.
One can’t help but despair when witnessing Christians sinking the boot into one another.
Hi Scott,
In response to your initial quote about homosexuality I think that it sounds like a lot like other comments made by Rob Bell in that on the surface it sounds reasonable but on a little reflection does not hold up.For example do you need paedophile friends to judge paedophilia? Or adulterous friends to judge adultery?
He seems to be saying that if you have ‘nice’ gay friends then homosexuality is okay or conversely…….
This is bizarre rationale and I can’t see any Christian theology supporting this view.
For many people homosexuality is an issue that the church should just get over.It is a bit rich that they persecute gays when there are plenty of sexual acts enjoyed by heterosexuals which many would consider perverse.But not a word on them.
Simon,
After a bit of pondering I see your point. Although for Bell to make even that point he would be seen to conceding ground by fundamentalists in the US.
Maybe the question should be what would Jesus do?
The infamous wwjd question! The woman surrounded by the stone wielding Pharisees comes to mind. The woman is not left unclear about the inappropriateness of her actions, but those who stood to judge her were resoundingly put in their place…
[...] Bell and Emergent There was a bit of comment action on the post ‘Rob Bell‘. Alot which of which where off [...]
Rob Bell and Emergent « Ranges Community Church said this on January 29, 2008 at 8:30 am
I would just like to say “where is the love?”
Are we so hung up on theology that we have forgotten we are all on the same team serving the same God.
Everyone needs to get over themselves and leave the judgements to God. All theological beliefs should be between each individual and God. We should as Chrisitians be supportive, loving and not condeming and hurtful.
How else do we unite in this world?
I agree with Eve Bryant above. I think some of you are just jealous that he is winning hearts for Christ and speaking to so many of us. We are sll on the same team and if other see us fighting and bickering over petty things then they will run from God. Rob Bell is a suberb writer and speaker and pastor and is doing good things with the good news he has been given. If you can’t see that at least don’t put down the many who can…..
Hi Michelle, I agree as well regarding your views on Rob Bell he is a suburb writer, speaker and pastor. I have grown because of his writing. Though I think its great that other people have a different views to myself on this blog. What I would hope for is people air their views respectively. Which I think Matt has done. Simonx is a actually a good friend who is an Agnositic. I also respect his opinion. He has many insights into our strange Christian culture.
A very long thread over time with many insights.
It pays to read them slowly.
I read a bit of the article – see January 18 2008 post from someone. It’s respectful & while I don’t agree with the conclusions, I hold the person tightly as a Brother in the Lord while putting their opinions aside.
I like Rob Bell’s worldview – we’re half way through watching the God’s Aren’t Angry & we stopped for 2 weeks. During that time, the image of the altar – climbing both sides – keeps returning and (I believe) the Spirit keeps speaking through it.
I’ve read his books, watched his DVDs, listened to his sermons. God speaks through His word, even when it’s a donkey. Whether Rob Bell is 100% right or not is impossible to ever know unless you’re God.
I have a low view of scripture as a book but a High View of God’s desire to reveal Himself through His Scripture as The Word – in the beginning was the Word before the books were ever written.
Many modern Evangelical Christians need to discover the mystical roots of our Faith. It’s humbling & opening to realize almost everything we believe about God and scripture is a late development in the 2000 year journey of Christ with His people.
Grace & Peace My Friends.
Hi Stefan thanks for dropping by, I think you are spot on.
Hi Scott,
I’m joining this ‘conversation’ blind in a sense; I’ve read all the comments from start to finish.
Post-modernism and modernity both have good and not so good elements in them; even though I would describe myself as a POMO I can see the flaws in this worldview. My concern, and maybe it’s my only concern with modernity, is this obsession with absolutes. Having been brought up in a church that was essentially modern, I’m still working through some of the issues. Modernity has the tendency to create theological sentry guards, as soon as you tread on any theological boundaries out come the weapons of defence and attack, this would appear to be largely ‘reactional’ and not relational, I would even argue that the greater one embraces modernity the sharper the theological edges, one can end up with a belief system that is almost surgical, try engaging with such a person and the whole conversation has a reactional element within it, and these same persons start quoting the word of God like it is a weapon, this is done to end any further conversation, not to open It unfortunately this does not lend itself to ‘intelligent orthodoxy’
My point is this; some come to faith needing a black-and-white propositional package, now there is nothing wrong with this whatsoever, but there are some who think differently, who need to investigate and find a faith that has a strong central theme, and hopefully this is Christ.
In my own case, the stronger the central theme the greater the courage to investigate belief/ theology, now I only do this when it fails to engage my heart and or fails to provide what I can only call the ‘ring of truth’ now for me this is sometimes scary. Now if Christ was not the central theme, I don’t think I would have the same freedom to ‘venture’ or investigate’ now for me this is the ‘great adventure’.
Far to often Christians pull up at the first sight of land and then declare it as absolute truth, little do they realise that this is only French island, the rest remains ‘undiscovered’ now I’m nor saying there is not such a thing as absolute truth, but let me show you mine and I would love to see yours, but please no weapons of mass theological destruction.
Finally, this is why Mclaren uses the phrase ‘conversation’ alas! For some this is not possible, modernity seems to have breed a whole generation who only understand the word monologue, listening with your answer already primed is not conversation.
Ps: Love Bell
Hi Scott,
One last thing! Let me just qualify this phrase ‘a strong central theme’ in my own case it is a living, vibrant, relational life with God through Christ. This same life empowers me, encourages me, and also prompts me to investigate those elements of my faith that fail to engage my heart and mind. This might be pushing the idea to far but let me say it anyway, I have greater faith in God and the spirit to lead me into truth, than my ability to by lead into untruths, now let me also say that there are inherent dangers in this, but these are risks I’m also willing to take.
Finally, a faith that is holistic (in the Hebrew tradition) would encourage one to push the boundaries, when they become claustrophobic and or meaningless and outdated.
It would seem to me that the Holy Spirit leads one into truth when the motive is an authentic, credible faith.
Regards Bob
Hi Scott,
Our mistake is that we seem to get confused, thinking that 2000 years after Jesus’ death somehow our SIN is different and we are also, as humans more “evolved”. Rather than WWJD (which enters our opinion into the iequation) turn to scripture and read it plainly – WDJD which is – What Did Jesus Do.
“Parasusousin” is a term coined to describe error which is laid
deceptively next to truth so to make the distinction “grey” it is the devil’s greatest skill. look at the error of the last church in Rev., Laeodecia, it means “peoples opinions” Rather we should read scripture for what the author meant by it, then apply it’s truth. We should ask what would Jesus words mean if we had never been born!!! Once we freely add to or take away from the context
we enter into the “devil’s algebra” which is an action cursed in the Word.
As far as homosexuality goes as a sin, it is no different from lying, stealing, idolatry (making a god we are happy with) etc.
The Law was used throughout the NT as a mirror to reflect our
sin and Christ came to wash us free for eternity. The God of the
Bible is not just loving but Just AND Loving. All sinners who do not repent and believe (trust) will not escape HIS wrath otherwise the CROSS is meaningless and it makes a mockery of our merciful God and savior Jesus.
Realise that doctrine is foundational and when we have claims from emergents like The cross was cosmic child abuse or “if our wife does something wrong, do we then turn and kick the dog” This is unadulterated heresy.
Brothers & sisters in Christ stick to the Word, after all it is not a suggestion but a commandment to work out our salvation with fear and trembling – and sometimes deceptions are sent to test our obedience and perserverence to become “overcomers” in Christ, for Christ.
Love you none the less
Tony from OZ
Personally I don’t understand what the fuss is about…
Rob Bell challenges us to search our faith and search GOD not just take things (religion) at face value.
I think its great that we as Christians truly become just that. Christians. Followers of Jesus Christ.
I love the fact that Jesus, Himself came to a world that had ‘the law’ yet Jesus brought a new thought to it. I love the fact that Jesus and God encourage us to seek him!
Just that alone, should make us think that we could never possible be able to know everything, right and wrong, white or black about God!
The Bible also says that if we were to try and write all things concerning Jesus there would not be enough books to write these things.
We need to search God with our entire hearts. The Bible tells us to! Jesus encourages us to!
“Seek me with all your heart, and then you shall find me!”
-Jesus
Peace!
Love you all…
One dude seeking a personal relationship with Jesus to others who are on the same journey.